[Scpg] thought you might like this ongoing discussion from NA Perm listserve

[scpg-admin at arashi.com]

a consultant to the Australian government's AusAID - from the CGIAR - once
described permaculture to a meeting as 'a technology with no role in
development assistance'

And there's a big part of the problem: the view that permaculture is a
technology on the same level as, say, solar panels or growing row crops. When
people start to understand that Pc is not a technique but a design approach,
then they'll see that there are supporting data, and not so vigorously
insist we
show them a "permaculture farm" or other hard-to-come-by site. Since Pc helps
organize techniques from agroforestry, appropriate tech, and all the rest, we
can use their data. I've got a library book called Tropical Agroforestry by
Peter A. Huxley. He cites many experiments that determine the efficacy of,
e.g.
alley cropping Leucana with millet (conclusion: without adequate rainfall, no
benefit, but with rain, significant benefit over millet alone in yield,
erosion
control, and water infiltration). Or growing vanilla on Acacia auriculiformis
trunks instead of on inert trellises: higher yields, protection from sun
scald,
less erosion, less fertilizer, plenty of free mulch. There are tons and
tons of
experiments and data like these, and they all support permaculture. All
Mollison did was to show how to link these fields together (that's a really
big
"all"!). 

The difficulty is that we have to explain why the examples above are not just
agroforestry but can also be considered part of a permaculture system. First
there is overcoming the resentment over the notion that permaculture
"includes"
agroforestry (or organic farming, or consensus decision-making, or anyone
else's favorite specialty that they've dedicated their life to and don't want
to see called anything else!). It doesn't include or subsume other fields: it
tells you when and how and where to apply them. So we suffer from a problem of
perception; People think Pc is swales, or herb spirals, or a technique
comparable to row-cropping. We need to come up with a coherent statement that
allows us to use all the data in support of the techniques permaculture links
together. So when someone says, "You can't use data from agroforestry," we can
tell them exactly why we can.

Asking if permaculture works is a bit like asking if architecture works or has
data to support it. Architecture organizes ideas from engineering,
aesthetics, 
materials science, centuries of experience, etc, to design buildings, and
draws
on lots of fields for data, but I'm not sure that "architecture" generates
data. To ask "Where are the data to support architecture?" would get you some
weird looks: the buildings are all around us, and, furthermore, compared to
what--living in the open? So one answer to "where are the data for Pc?"
(alluded to in someone else's post) is: Do you mean compared to all the
systems
of non-design that we know aren't sustainable when all factors (erosion,
pollution, true cost, social justice) are taken into account? Or, to be less
combative, we can answer, "Compared to what?" and when they say, for example,
"To annual row crops," we can say: You get higher yields with agroforestry.
Then when they answer, "But that's agroforestry, not permaculture," we explain
that Pc isn't a technique, and how it integrates agroforestry into a larger
design, based on the client's needs and what the land and culture will
support.
Sort of like architecture, but for sustainable systems, not just buildings.

I realize I'm answering my own question here; believe me, I didn't have these
ideas before people started responding to my post; that group mind is at work.
Until that great day when there are a bunch of successful farms designed by
people with permaculture certificates, I think we can justify using data from
agroforestry, natural building, AT, aquaculture, etc. But that still means
doing the library research to collect the data. Putting that together would be
a real service.

Toby    

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"We are like trees, we must create new leaves, in new directions, in order to
grow." - Anonymous  
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