[Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
John Calvert
jcalvert at crystal3.com
Mon Sep 6 13:14:40 PDT 2010
Owen Dell wrote:
> Thank you for your amendments. It would have saved a lot of trouble if
> you had said these things in the first place. I hope that the
> professional the owner consulted is a geotechnical professional, which
> is the only discipline I am aware of that can bless a project of this
> kind. And as for vetiver, it is indeed an excellent slope holder in
> many situations. Vetiver is the exception to the rule that grasses are
> poor slope holders. It's important to be specific about these things,
> because just saying "grass" could lead someone to plant fescue or rye
> or some other inappropriate species. Not all grasses are the same.
>
> I never asserted that permaculture was incapable of stabilizing a
> slope. I did and do assert that the discussion was leading in some
> very dangerous directions and I stepped in, at the risk of being seen
> as a complete asshole,
I don't think you are a complete asshole
> to send up a red flag and possibly stop something very bad from
> happening. I will, however, add that I often see permaculturists doing
> things that are reckless by the standards of landscape architecture
> and biology. Permaculture is a funny mix of science and superstition,
> in my opinion, and there is a lot of ego in it, to its detriment.
yeah, but don't confuse the people with the design methodology
> When people make cavalier statements that are not based on fact,
> accepted principles, the experience of generations of well-informed
> people, and the laws of nature, they risk both creating a hazard and
> discrediting permaculture. Precisely BECAUSE of the huge number of
> variables involved in any land use decision, I'd like to see a lot
> more scientific rigor applied to some of these practices, and a lot
> less naivete, recklessness, and arrogance. Innovation is great as long
> as its proponents aren't talking nonsense or endangering people.
I'm all for time-honored traditional methods, traditional farming
techniques, etc., in combination with sustainable methods and system
integration.
people get hung up on the word "permaculture". It's a design
methodology, not a replacement for the entire human brain.
JC
>
>
> Now you'll all really hate me. Oh well.
>
> Owen
>
> Owen E. Dell, ASLA
> Owen Dell & Associates
> Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
> P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
> 805 962-3253
> owen at owendell.com
> www.owendell.com
>
>
> QUOTE OF THE DAY
>
> “…even if the form is fitting and the design follows the lie of the
> land, but the owner still does not get the right person to carry out
> the work, and in addition is reluctant to spend money when
> necessary, then any work which may have been done previously
> will be wasted along with his present efforts.”
> Ji Cheng, “The Craft of Gardens”
> 1631 a.d.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:16 PM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
>
>> And to amend my original post on the subject: the owner did consult
>> professionals, did use structural elements to stabilize the slope in
>> addition to biological ones, and does consider safety first and
>> foremost.
>>
>> My point was to provide two biological solutions that had not been
>> previously submitted. Vetiver turns out to be a champion. My gosh,
>> it's a grass that has its own international association!
>>
>> Is the assumption, then, that permaculture approaches could not
>> possibly stablize a slope? That seems like faulty reasoning, given
>> the number of variables involved for each unique situation and the
>> stunning array of applications one could use..
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: John Calvert <jcalvert at crystal3.com>
>> To: Undisclosed-recipients:;
>> Cc: Scpg at arashi.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 12:01:26 -0700
>>
>>
>> Perhaps I can bring this to a close by saying that permaculture is
>> applied to do what is appropriate, not to force an idea. "The
>> problem is the solution" – the conditions and inputs will determine
>> the possibilities. Herein lies the beauty of permaculture as a way
>> of looking at things holistically, and without attachment to
>> preconceived ideas or outcomes. But Owen's point is well taken –
>> i.e. to have an understanding of what's going on with the mechanics
>> of a slope, which involves soil, geology, and hydrology.
>>
>> I trust that Kevin is very capable of making a good decision.
>>
>> JC
>>
>>
>> Owen Dell wrote: Gee, people! Why are you so threatened by facts?
>> Shoot the messenger? Come on! You just don't want to hear the truth.
>> Slope failure, as I said in my previous email is NOT covered by
>> insurance. Ask your agent. If your "experiential life" includes
>> bankruptcy and a multi-million dollar lawsuit because your property
>> fell onto your neighbor's house, maybe killing someone, then how are
>> you going to feel? I've been an expert witness on cases of this kind.
>> I really hate to ramp up the conflict here, but I just have got to
>> tell you that you are living in a dream world if you think that it's
>> no big deal to put public safety and the environment at risk because
>> of some notion that it would be cool to transform a steep slope into
>> a permaculture planting. Nice idea, but first you have to be sure
>> you're not committing a massive and irretrievable error in judgment.
>> I love permaculture and I love producing food, but I also love doing
>> things right and staying out of trouble. Don't live in a dream world.
>> Your actions have significant impacts on others. Find out what you're
>> doing before you do it. Messing with land isn't a game. It's serious
>> business, and safety is ALWAYS an overriding concern.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>> Owen E. Dell, ASLA
>> Owen Dell & Associates
>> Landscape Architect • Educator • Author
>> P.O. Box 30433 • Santa Barbara, CA 93130
>> 805 962-3253
>> owen at owendell.com
>> www.owendell.com
>>
>>
>> QUOTE OF THE DAY
>>
>> “Skill in landscape design is shown in the ability to 'follow' and
>> 'borrow from' the existing scenery and lie of the land, and artistry
>> is shown in the feeling of suitability created. This is…beyond the
>> powers of mere workmen, as well as beyond the control of the
>> landowner. The owner must obtain the services of the right person,
>> and not throw his money away.”
>>
>> Ji Cheng, “The Craft of Gardens”
>> 1631 a.d.
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2010, at 11:03 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com wrote:
>>
>> Yes! I believe vetiver grass is it. Thank you Vinay.
>>
>> With all due respect to Owen, please don't shoot the messenger. I was
>> trying to put Kevin in touch with someone who has a challenging slope
>> and has done a lot of research and has had years of results and
>> tinkering with the regime. Just passing along contacts and
>> information here.
>>
>> Yes, you can't beat professional advice and experience, but there are
>> new things to be discovered if one wants to live an experiential life
>> and has really good insurance, and where safety is not an overriding
>> concern. Some people like the process of discovery as much as the
>> goal. I'll leave it at that.
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Vinay Jathanna <vjathanna at gmail.com>
>> To: "lfunkhouser at juno.com" <lfunkhouser at juno.com>
>> Cc: kevin at kevingleasonart.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 10:55:15 -0700
>>
>> Hi Laura and Kevin,
>>
>> It is Vetiver Grass. Doug Richardson, in Santa Barbara is doing a lot
>> of work with vetiver grass. It is a grass that comes from the Indian
>> subcontinent. It is very benign and has multiple uses as a
>> Permaculture plant.
>>
>> http://vetivernetinternational.blogspot.com/2008/06/vetiver-system-applications-in.html
>>
>> http://www.vetiver.org/
>>
>> Vinay
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:08 AM, lfunkhouser at juno.com
>> <lfunkhouser at juno.com> wrote:
>> Kevin,
>>
>> You might also want to talk to Mary Scaran, who is an acupuncturist
>> in SB (she's in the phone book) and has a very steep slope running
>> the entire length of her oak wooded and desert upland property that
>> is permeated by a spring. She has planted lots of things to
>> stabilize, including Persian mulberry trees (edible!) and some kind
>> of grass -- can't remember which -- but a type of bunch grass that
>> she selected for its very specific properties of soil stabilization.
>> Mary practices permaculture, studies horticulture, and is a very fine
>> acupuncturist.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> --Laura
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> From: Kevin Gleason <kevin at kevingleasonart.com>
>> To: John Calvert <jcalvert at crystal3.com>
>> Cc: scpg at arashi.com
>> Subject: Re: [Scpg] steep permaculture slope ideas?
>> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 07:14:15 -0700
>>
>> Thanks, John, and all others who have replied. �This is such a helpful �
>> community. �I am going to look into the "net and pan" technique Susan �
>> recommended and am trying to find some good "pinning" shrubs and trees �
>> per Dan's advice. �I need to pay good attention to the plants that �
>> seem to be holding up west facing slopes next time I'm out hiking. �It �
>> is okay with me if this really steep section doesn't grow food.... �
>> Maybe I'll just grow food for the birds there.
>> I appreciate eveyone's help.
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2010, at 9:22 PM, John Calvert wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > I started out writing a response to this, looking in the direction �
>> > of what grows native on our steep coastal mountain canyons.
>> >
>> > But I realize that there isn't much edible on the really steep �
>> > slopes. �It seems the more fruit-bearing types are more likely to �
>> > appear where there's better soil and moisture.
>> >
>> > So, that leaves the plants that do well in poor soil and least �
>> > moisture...
>> >
>> > nopal cactus, various wild sages, maybe fit in a hollyleaf cherry, �
>> > chia ?, maybe some kind of mulberry, wild golden currant (?).
>> >
>> > so, mostly natives, and then some select fruit-bearing plantings w/ �
>> > drip irrigation. �?
>> >
>> > JC
>> >
>> >
>> > Kevin Gleason wrote:
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> I was wondering if anyone has good advice for creating a garden on �
>> >> a VERY steep slope (more than 45 degrees.) �I'd love some feedback �
>> >> on alternative terracing methods, whether this is too steep for �
>> >> small swales, good soil-holding, drought-tolerant �ground covers �
>> >> and other plants that would be useful and other ideas. �I remember �
>> >> hearing Brock Dolman talking about making retaining walls with �
>> >> burlap tubes filled with soil and a little cement. �Anybody tried it?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for your help!
>> >> Kevin
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